Bits and Stems in Response to EJ

EJ:
Now, haven't we suffered enough at the hands of extremist ideologies?

SR:
To blame “extremism” for the world’s problems may be comforting to the vast majority of humanity, who just go along to get along; but it is not a reasonable position. Extremism is not a vice, and thinking the same way as everyone else is not a virtue; unless it happens that the majority is right.

In his context, Wilberforce was an extremist in seeking to end slavery. So was Lincoln when he was elected. So was Winston Churchill, in his opposition to Nazism. So was George Washington, in his opposition to the crown; or Thomas Jefferson, in his belief in individual liberty. So was Martin Luther King in his day, and Oskar Schindler in his.

We have perhaps not suffered nearly enough at the hands of extremist ideologues. In the Soviet Communist party, the extremist ideologue was Trotsky, not Stalin. Stalin was the centrist. Hitler was considered the great moderate within the Nazi Party, and Nazism a more “moderate” alternative to Communism.

EJ:
… Next, you say murder is wrong regardless of how one feels. However, a conscience is in fact a feeling. We evolved to have a conscience, to feel love and empathy, to care for things besides ourselves.

… When I was four, I accidentally killed my pet rabbit (roughhousing with a friend). The devastation and guilt haunts me to this day. … I would go as far as saying that people without a capcity for guilt or shame are less evolved. … we have evolution to thank for this capacity, as we have developed bigger brains than other base animals.

SR:
You continue to misunderstand the theory of evolution by natural selection. Evolution, without a God involved, should be completely random. It will not move towards greater order or greater morality or greater consciousness. Only towards greater chance of survival. If it indeed nevertheless does move towards greater order, morality, or consciousness, you have proof of God’s existence.

Moreover, how could such an “evolution” have produced a conscience which acts as you describe it here? If natural selection works, survival preference should be strongest for those who look out for themselves first; a secondary consideration would be the survival of progeny, possibly even of the species. But concern for other species? A conscience telling us to put ourselves second? Prima facie, a disadvantage in the quest for raw survival. Yet we humans, like you yourself have experienced with your pet rabbit, invariably or almost invariably feel it.

EJ:
That Jesus told his followers murder was wrong is a blatant example of hypocrisy. First, in a scripture not included in the bible because of the "criteria of embarrassment", a teenaged Jesus kills another boy, just because the boy made fun of him.

SR:
Okay, let me get this straight: if any writing says Jesus is God, or represents him as a good person, or says he told his followers murder is wrong, that writing is false and a “myth.” But if any writing throws doubt on this thesis, or represents him or his father doing anything apparently disreputable, or says he killed someone, that account must be true.

I get it. You just assume the conclusion as a given, and accept only evidence that supports it.

Works for me.

EJ:
4) All arguments that supposedly prove god existence assume the antecedent of his existence in the first place.

SR:
Let’s make this clear, Jeff: you keep citing this idea of “assuming the antecedent” as if it invalidates the conclusion. Not so; assuming the antecedent is the standard procedure in solving a logical problem. All scientific theories, for example, are developed by assuming the antecedent and then testing the hypothesis.

My guess is that you really mean to say the arguments are tautological. You need to demonstrate that.