Posts
EJ:
Let me ask you this point blank: suppose you have a dream and you are sure your God is talking to you and He tells you to kill your own wife. Would you do it? See the dilema your delusion causes here? If you don't do it, it means you really don't believe in God. If you do do it, you are insane.
SR:
Good question, Jeff—and one I addressed here recently in the context of Mitt Romney’s Mormonism.
According to Christian teaching, God cannot and will not ask us to violate morality, because good and evil are absolutes, and he is all good; in the same way that he cannot and will not violate the rules of logic.
Therefore, if I had a dream in which “God” told me to kill my wife (assuming this was obviously immoral—not all killing is), then by that I would simply know that the dream was not from God.
In general, for Catholics, the rule is to be quite wary of such private revelations; to “test the spirits.” Because, of course, we believe in the existence of evil spirits as well as good ones, and evil spirits too can send dreams and visions.
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
8 comments:
You fell right into my trap. If you don't think God would tell someone to murder a fellow human being, you don't know your bible at all. First there's the story of Him telling Abraham to kill his own son for no other reason than Ego, to prove loyalty. (This sadistic request was like something you would find in the mafia.)
Another example (of many), is when God tells Moses to stone to death an innocent man the tribe happens across in the desert.
On top of all this, you did not have the courage to stick with the senerio, which includes you knowing it is God for sure who is in your dream.
Come on Steve, God works in mysterious ways. If he came to you in a dream, you'd have no choice but to obey, according to your own dogma. Righ?
The truth is that you would not kill your wife because deep down inside you know there is no god. Rational thought would be your ticket out of the hellish dilemma. Finally, you would understand that it is wrong to put the superstition of the supernatural ahead of your fellow human beings.
Those who really do believe in god, (i.e suicide bombers, those refusing medical treatment for deathly ill children, George Bush) are the ones who have the potential to commit crimes against humanity.
EJ:
You fell right into my trap. If you don't think God would tell someone to murder a fellow human being, you don't know your bible at all. First there's the story of Him telling Abraham to kill his own son for no other reason than Ego, to prove loyalty.
SR:
You haven’t read the end of the story. It’s a bit of a surprise. God tells Abraham _not_ to kill his son, but to sacrifice a ram instead. It was just a test.
EJ:
Another example (of many), is when God tells Moses to stone to death an innocent man the tribe happens across in the desert.
SR:
You’re going to have to quote chapter and verse for me here; I can’t recall or find any such incident. Moses does kill a man, in his youth, but not when he is with the Hebrew tribes, and not at God’s command.
EJ:
On top of all this, you did not have the courage to stick with the senerio, which includes you knowing it is God for sure who is in your dream.
SR:
You say “it is a dream and you are sure God is talking to you.” But that is impossible. One could never be sure that a dream is from God; or be certain that we correctly understand any dream’s meaning. We are not God.
You have been checkmated, sir. It's just a matter of you being human enough to admit it. Pope JP2 was human enough to admit the Catholic 2000 years of Catholic sins. You still deny your cult's wrong doings, so it's no surprize you can not concede our debate.
I know God comes in at the last minute to stop Abraham. This does not change the fact that it was inhumane to torture him like that. The myth of God depicts Him in the story as a sadistic egomaniac. Plus, the point is that Abraham was insane enough with religion to kill his own son. I mean think about it: Abraham would have slaughtered his own son, what a great dad!
The bible is loaded with God's murderous rage. So him telling you to kill your own wife is completely in His character.
As far as I remember, God and angles talk to people in dreams. But okay Mr. laywer trying to get off on a technicality, what if it wasn't a dream and you thought God was really talking to you?
Again, this senerio is by no means unprecedented. "God told me to do" has been tried in the court of law. (Sure enough, the best a defendant can hope for with this defense is an insanity plea.)
Uncanny, but this morning while driving my son to school, we laughed uproariously, because a man has been charged with fraud for trying to cash a check signed by God!
Luckily for us humans, the god delusion does not hold up in a court of law. It's because deep down inside, most know there really is no such thing as the supernatural.
EJ:
I know God comes in at the last minute to stop Abraham. This does not change the fact that it was inhumane to torture him like that. The myth of God depicts Him in the story as a sadistic egomaniac.
SR:
Ah yes, imagine what Abraham must have gone through, having to kill his only begotten son.
And now perhaps you are ready for the Christian significance of the story—that is exactly what God did, voluntarily, for us.
Did you say sadistic egomaniac?
Kind of makes you think, doesn’t it?
EJ:
Plus, the point is that Abraham was insane enough with religion to kill his own son. I mean think about it: Abraham would have slaughtered his own son, what a great dad!
SR:
Abraham’s actions were reasonable. Unlike us, he was a freelance monotheist. He had no established tradition against which to test his visions. Or rather, the only established tradition he could test it against was shamanism. Shamanism does commonly, and did in Canaan (e.g., cult of Moloch), call for human sacrifice.
So, to Abraham, it would not have been apparent that the act was immoral. And, indeed, God really does have the moral right to kill any of us; just as a potter has the right to break a pot that does not meet with his approval.
The only issue for Abraham would have been his personal horror at losing his only son.
EJ:
As far as I remember, God and angles talk to people in dreams. But okay Mr. laywer trying to get off on a technicality, what if it wasn't a dream and you thought God was really talking to you?
SR:
There are such things as hallucinations. No vision is certain short of the mystic union.
God and angels certainly do talk to people in dreams. Not at issue. Don’t confuse ontology (what is) with epistemology (what can be known).
Thank you for reinforcing my main point, that religion is inhumane.
And, you still have not answered my question, what if you were certain God told you to commit a heinous act? We can play my checkmate out as long as you please.
Consider this terrifying possibility: before losing his presidency George W has a hallucination and he is sure God has told him to bing Jesus back to earth with nuclear apocalypse.
Delusions are like lies in that one leads to another. This is why religion is a staple of war and terrorism.
I was on the treadmill and thought, did Steve really say that God could kill who he wants, ie if He judges someowe defective He can annhilate him like a potter smashing a defective pot?
Are you talking about God or Hitler here?
This is truly ironic. You are supporting my argument with your retort. Through religion, you have thoroughly lost site of your humanity.
EJ:
Thank you for reinforcing my main point, that religion is inhumane.
And, you still have not answered my question, what if you were certain God told you to commit a heinous act? We can play my checkmate out as long as you please.
SR:
There are actually two answers here: one could never be certain, and he never would. It’s like saying, okay, there can be no such thing as a square circle, but if there were, what would its radius be in relation to its circumference?
EJ:
I was on the treadmill and thought, did Steve really say that God could kill who he wants, ie if He judges someowe defective He can annhilate him like a potter smashing a defective pot?
SR:
Jeff, I’m afraid it’s worse than that. Here’s the bottom line: we all die. That means, if there is a God, necessarily, he actually does kill all of us.
But you are assuming, as before, that death is a bad thing. You do not know that; you only fear it.
It is not calling a circle square to give a hypothetical scenario whereby God tells someone to kill a fellow human being: The Lord does it all the time in the Bible.
Every rational person fears death to a degree, unless they are in substantial, chronic pain (in this case, belief in god or no, death can be welcomed). A big part of why you believe in God is that the church has hyjacked your natural survival instinct with the false guarantee of heaven, (if you do what they say, i.e give them money).
Post a Comment