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“Every religious sect, without empirical proof, believes its view is superior to everyone else’s.” With that first sentence, Jeff Harmsen employs a fudge factor big enough to invalidate the rest of his letter in today’s National Post (“In praise of atheism,” January 25). There are proofs other than empirical proofs. Indeed, as philosophical proofs go, empirical ones are generally less than compelling.
Most religious groups worthy of the name can indeed marshal logical reasons why their beliefs are correct. This is called theology.
Harmsen goes on:
“In essence, the underlying message is that, if we don’t believe as they do, we are less of a person than they are. Through atheistic humanism, on the other hand, we are all truly equal, because, instead of divisive creeds, we simply believe in each other.”
In essence, the underlying message is that, if we don’t believe as he does, and are not atheists, we are less of a person than he is.
“What if our ideology were based on a concept such as universal empathy, whereby mere birth warranted the unadulterated respect of all other fellow human beings? The consideration we show will be reciprocated. How could it not be?”
He might ask a Christian. They’ve been trying this little experiment for two thousand years.
“By seeing each other, not as Jews or Christians or Muslims, but as fellow human beings, we can obsolesce [sic] war and terrorism and maybe, just maybe, live in an unprecedented era of enlightenment.”
Not quite unprecedented: “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” Galatians 3:28.
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12 comments:
Yes, that's what is says in the bible, but in practice, each sect believes they are superior to every other sect. Hence, war and terrorism is alive and well in modernity.
Theology is base on the Bible, a book loaded with erroneous content. For example,the emperical observations of stars proves that the earth was not created before the sun, as it says in Genesis.
Yours in world peace,
Jeff
AKA, The Epicurean Jesus
And don't you, in practice, believe your sect, atheism, is superior to every other sect? You need a bit more self-awareness here. Don't criticise the mote in your brother's eye; tend to the log that is in your own.
I assure, you, there would be far more war and terrorism without religion than there is with it. This is like blaming the police for crime.
Theology quite properly refers to the Bible when trying to choose between two views both purportedly based on the Bible. But theology ranges far wider than that. It is not based on the Bible.
You are mistaking Genesis for an "empirical observation." On what grounds are you assuming that it was meant to be so?
You can not believe in something you don't know about. The only way you know about god (the way you do) is through the Bible. This is the crux of your theology a book loaded with irrefutable myth.
Atheism is based on what can be proved. Religion is based on blind faith (hence the war and terrorism). Thus, Atheism is not a sect the way you're describing it here.
What's more, what I'm advocating is Humanistic Atheism, which entales universal empathy for fellow human beings.
That you think there's be more war without religion is part of your delusion. For example, more people have been massacred in the name of Jesus Christ than in any other name, including Hitler.
Genesis states clearly what God does. The bible is taken literally by millions. What people must come to terms with is that the good book is useful when seen as metaphorical, not literal.
You are wrong to think that the only way anyone knows about God is through the Bible. One can also know God directly, for example through prayer or meditation; one can know of him through reason; one can know of him through the voice of conscience; through love; one can hear him spoken of, and revealed, through all the world's religious traditions; one can know him through the order and beauty science discerns in the universe; one knows him through the traditions and teachings of the Church; and through the poor and downtrodden. That's just for a start.
You claim "atheism is based on what can be proved." This is quite a remarkable assertion. You mean you can prove God does not exist? Nobody yet has. It is even considered impossible in principle to do so. Please elaborate.
On the other hand, there are many logical proofs of God's existence, from Descartes, Liebnitz, Aristotle, Anselm, and so forth. You need to address these.
You claim that more people have been massacred in the name of Jesus Christ than in any other name. Could you cite where and when this happened? In the broad history of human warfare, religious wars are very much the exception, not the rule. And, on the other side, you have to factor in the many times religious intervention or teaching has discouraged, prevented, mediated, or ended wars. I would think more people have been killed in the name of Karl Marx, who was of course an atheist, than any other; and far more people have been saved from war by the name of Jesus than have suffered war by it.
If others take the Bible only "literally," that does not oblige you to do so. Why do you?
You simply can not believe in something you don't know about. Thus, without the bible, or someone telling you about things found in the bible, you can not meditate on a god.
Place a group of adults on an island with no outside contact. They have children. If the parents don't mention the concept of a god, the children will not believe in one. The reason most people can't see the obvious truth about gods is that they have brainwashed from birth to believe.
There is loads of evidence that prove there is no god. Read "The God Delusion," by Dawkins. Plus, there's no way a supposed omnipotent entity can fulfill the criteria of infinity.
Re Christian killing: Read an unbiased account of the Crusades and Inquisitions for starters. Then there were the thousands of Jews and Pegans massacred when Rome made Christianity the state's official religion. While you're at it, you can tally the killing in Iraq during the unjust war there, spurred on by the American bible belt.
Over 90% of war in the history of humankind has been motivated by religion. This is a well known fact.
EJ:
Place a group of adults on an island with no outside contact. They have children. If the parents don't mention the concept of a god, the children will not believe in one.
SR:
This assumption goes against the evidence. All cultures seem to have a concept of a “great high god.” This suggests that the concept either arises spontaneously, or describes the common experience. There has never been an atheist culture.
EJ:
The reason most people can't see the obvious truth about gods is that they have brainwashed from birth to believe.
SR:
You should know that, scientifically, there is no such thing as brainwashing. An urban legend of the fifties; can’t be done.
EJ:
… Re Christian killing: Read an unbiased account of the Crusades and Inquisitions for starters.
SR:
Okay, the Inquisition. Unbiased account. According to the Museum of the Inquisition in Lima, Peru, the total number of fatalities attributable to the Spanish Inquisition, worldwide, over three centuries, is about three thousand. Given the times, it was probably safer to be held by the Inquisition than to stay at home.
The Crusades? This Wikipedia page
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:David_Kernow/List_of_massacres_involving_thousands_of_people
gives figures for various massacres of history. Figures from such distant ages are dubious, but I count a total of 102,250 killed by the Christians in the Crusades, 72,000 killed by the Muslims, in various atrocities. Bad, but probably no worse than par for the course for the times; and nothing compared to what we have seen at the hands of atheist and pagan regimes more recently.
Note too that, while killing all the inhabitants of a city after capture –- a practice accounting for almost all of these atrocity figures on both sides -- sounds like unjustifiable brutality to us today, when you stop to think about it, it is exactly what the US did in Hiroshima, and that is not commonly considered an atrocity. The logic of it was, if this was done with one city, after it had given spirited resistance, the next city would instead open its gates, or bargain for safe passage, saving, on balance, many lives. Just as the US argued that wiping out almost everyone in Hiroshima would save many lives later by shortening the war.
EJ:
Then there were the thousands of Jews and Pegans massacred when Rome made Christianity the state's official religion.
SR:
Really? History seems to have forgotten this, if so; while there are clear records of serious persecutions of Christians by pagans before Constantine. Temples were demolished or converted into churches, and paganism was officially made illegal, but were significant numbers of people killed for remaining pagan? Not that I’ve ever heard of. But it’s impossible to prove a negative.
EJ:
While you're at it, you can tally the killing in Iraq during the unjust war there, spurred on by the American bible belt.
SR:
You’re losing track of your score card here, EJ. The Vatican actually came out in opposition to the Iraq War. If it was a mistake, it was not Christianity’s mistake.
EJ:
Over 90% of war in the history of humankind has been motivated by religion. This is a well known fact.
SR:
To quote Josh Billings: “It’s not so much that people are ignorant, as that they know so many things that just aren’t so.”
Nearly all cultures brainwash their children with religion from birth. It happened to me. For the longest time I though God was real, perfect etc. Then, I woke up to reality. (Look the word up in the dictionary if you don't think it is a real phenomena)
God gave freedom of choice? Hogwash! Children are not mature enough to understand the facts regarding the supernatural when they are mutilated with circumcision, babtized, or otherwise drilled with a biased view in a multitude of bizarre rituals.
Christmas is one of the most genius brainwashing devices imaginable. Are children told about the thousands killed to have Christmas on Dec. 25, a holiday stolen from the Pagans? Of course not. This isn't even Jesus' real birthday. Instead, children are gorged with fattening food and spoiled with presents, all in the name of Christ-mass. And the kicker is that the church doesn't even have to fit the bill as millions of families go into debt.
Look up "Vicims of the Christian Faith," for death figures. I have stated the well known fact religion has caused over 90% of wars in many newspaper letters. The point has always been conceded because it's true.
Catholicism is not the only Christian cult. There are an estimated 55 million Evangelists who believe a nuclear war in the Middle East will spur on the second coming of Christ. Without the bind faith of the bible belt, Bush would never have been elected.
You might have misunderstood my position: I'm not just against the delusions of Catholicism: I'm against all religious delusions. Whether we're talking crusades or Islamic fundamentalists, it's all the same: the deluded kill in the name of their great imaginary friend in the sky.
Thus, I don't condone ANY killing based on delusion, not Pegan, Christian, not Islamic, none of it!
Delusions lead to profound ignorance and superstitious behaviour. Religion is responsible for more delusions than any other ideology. It takes tremendous courage to see the truth. Since humanity hangs in the balance, the venture is well worth it.
Jeff
Thanks Steve, for challanging my use of the word "brainwashing." I have spent some time reading about it and the term is more controversial than I had thought. A more accepted term for what your Catholic cult does is "mind control." For example, it uses the fantasy of heaven and hell as rewards and punishments to manipulate its memebers.
Nevertheless, many think "mind control" is just another term for "brainwashing."
I also came across the term "Exit Counseller." Guess in a way that is what I am since I believe that once people see the logical flaws of religion, they will no longer believe in its delusional dogma.
EJ:
Christmas is one of the most genius brainwashing devices imaginable. Are children told about the thousands killed to have Christmas on Dec. 25, a holiday stolen from the Pagans? Of course not. This isn't even Jesus' real birthday.
SR:
How do you know?
EJ:
Look up "Vicims of the Christian Faith," for death figures. I have stated the well known fact religion has caused over 90% of wars in many newspaper letters. The point has always been conceded because it's true.
SR:
You haven’t yet backed it up, when challenged. The web page you cited is useless, as it gives no control—no figures for non-Christianity-related deaths. It also assigns to Christianity any killing “committed in the name of Christianity,” which is far too loose a criterion to establish that Christianity really had anything to do with it. If someone commits a killing “in your name,” does that make you guilty of it? It also often cites the same event more than once, as if the figures were cumulative. And even if you added up all the figures it gives, assuming they are all accurate, the resulting figure is rather small, in terms of the overall killings there must have been in the world over the past two thousand or so years.
EJ:
Catholicism is not the only Christian cult. There are an estimated 55 million Evangelists …
SR:
No, but when you speak of “Christianity,” its position is decisive. Not only does it account directly for more than half of all the world’s Christians—over a billion souls; the Pope’s and the Vatican’s pronouncements also have weight with other Christians beyond the Catholic church proper. You cannot properly say “Christianity believes this,” if the Catholic Church does not.
EJ:
… Thus, I don't condone ANY killing based on delusion, not Pegan, Christian, not Islamic, none of it!
SR:
Including the atheist delusion? Then we agree, at least on this. But if you set atheism apart, as somehow special and exempt from this possibility, then it is you who are the fundamentalist.
EJ:
Thanks Steve, for challanging my use of the word "brainwashing." I have spent some time reading about it and the term is more controversial than I had thought. A more accepted term for what your Catholic cult does is "mind control."
SR:
No, “mind control” too is the stuff of science fiction or paranoid delusion. It is the same as “brainwashing.” It does not exist in the real world.
EJ:
For example, it uses the fantasy of heaven and hell as rewards and punishments to manipulate its members.
SR:
Again, this is tautological. The criticism is valid only if you assume heaven and hell do not exist.
Based on references in the Bible re sheep, Jesus was born in the spring. The whole story of how Christmas came to be on Dec. 25 is quite facinating. The Pagans worshipped the sun and so they celebrated three days around the winter solstice.
Further, if anyone wants to know the truth about how Christian dogma was invented and codified, all they have to do is read enough history to answer this question: how did a Jewish Rabbi from Jerusalem, someone who never set foot in Itally, became the religious icon for Rome?
Answer this and you will see that the bible consists of manmade fable condusive to a plolical ploy.
Good point Steve. You are right, if someone kills in my name, I'm not guilty. However, I do not have a problem with Rabbi Joshua, who, long after his death became known as Jesus Christ. My advocacy is against the deleterious affect of religious delusions, many of which are based on the church's fantasy of the Great Rabbi.
We have to give Jesus et el. a break. He knew nothing of astronomy or evolution. Delusion and superstition ran more rampant in his day than it does today.
Re religion and war: Simply look up the crusades and Inquisitions. There alone you will find innumerable cases of religious torture and murder. And this would barely scratch the surface of religious atrocity found throughout history.
Atheism is not based on delusions like religion, it's based on rational thought. There are examples of atheistic despots. However, they are missing the other half of a peaceful ideology: humanism. There is no example in history of an atheistic humanist who practices tyrany.
Whoa, Steve you have contradicted yourself big time. In our other debate you concede there is no heaven and hell. In this post, you say these fantasies are real?
What I mean by brainwashing and mind control is the act of deceiving people by forcing myth upon them as if it is reality.
When a priest gives wine to his congregation, he is doing it under the false pretext that the wine is the actual blood of Christ.
This is a lie. Place the wine under a microscope and you will not find the blood of a dead man.
This sort of bizzare ritual is the staple of all cults.
All cults threaten severe punishment if you don't follow their dogma. Burning for eternity is quite severe, don't you think? This nonesense is an obvious brainwashing ploy (brainwashing as defined above).
Have a nice day,
Jeff
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