Playing the Indian Card

Monday, May 22, 2006

India Ink

I see in several sources today that Indians are protesting Pope Benedict’s criticism of “signs of religious intolerance” in that country.

Interesting; why is this, and not the Pope’s original comment, the story? A news search on Google using the string “religious intolerance India” turns up an immediate 60 stories on the Indians’ protest, but, far down the page, just one story on the original charge. And this from Zenit, that Vatican’s own news agency.

This is dramatic evidence of an extreme anti-Catholic press bias worldwide, in which the Catholic voice is not heard, but any opposition to the Catholic Church is given wide play.

The substance of the Pope’s complaint, as given by Zenit, is this: “The disturbing signs of religious intolerance which have troubled some regions of the nation [India], including the reprehensible attempt to legislate clearly discriminatory restrictions on the fundamental right of religious freedom, must be firmly rejected as not only unconstitutional, but also as contrary to the highest ideals of India's founding fathers, who believed in a nation of peaceful coexistence and mutual tolerance between different religions and ethnic groups.”

Indians themselves clearly understand this has to do with laws in several states which ban, in their words, “forced religious conversions.”

“Forced religious conversions”? This is purely a euphemism. After all, it is the state that has a monopoly on force. For a small religious minority lacking political power, “forced conversion” is be a physical impossibility.

No; what is really banned here is conversion per se. The Bharatiya Janata Party’s spokesman, giving examples of “forced conversion,” cited “using financial and educational lures.” I doubt that any Christian missionaries are offering such things as a quid pro quo; it seems more likely that the mere existence of Christian charity hospitals and schools is objected to here. But even were it so, this is not forced conversion. Any more than one is forced to buy something at the supermarket because it is being offered at a very good price.

BJP leader VK Malhoutra asks the Pope, rhetorically, “If conversion is a right, re-conversion is also a right. Will he agree to it?”

Well, yes. Why does the question even come up? Can Malhoutra point to a single Christian-run country where conversion to Hinduism is illegal? Quite the reverse, surely; not long ago, there were Hare Krishnas in every airport, and Transcendental Meditation Centres on every college campus. Government money is actually spent fairly liberally promoting meditation for cancer victims, say, or yoga for general health at community centres; yet these are specifically Hindu religious practices. There is no comparable government money going for the promotion of Christian prayer.

BJP spokesman Uday Singh objects to complaining about abuse of human rights “in a democratic country.”

This is pure non-sequitor. Hitler was democratically elected. The US South in the time of slavery or in the time of the civil rights struggles was also a democratic country. Democracy and respect for human rights are not related issues.

Others point out that there is not religious freedom in the Vatican.

But there is—because citizenship in the Vatican City is itself, unlike citizenship in other countries, purely voluntary.

I smell a bandicoot.

Which is to say, a very big Indian rat.

11 comments:

Anonymous said...

First if all, ridiculing forced conversion is just hypocrisy. We are talking extremely poor people who can forced to convert using big money that comes into India. Secondly, the law is not just for forced but also influenced, bribed conversions, which have been documented to take place. My mother and I know of such cases personally. BTW the govt felt the need to pass the law because a mission was found to be distributing downright malacious book abt Hinduism. Slandering other religions is not a right in India. Anycase, why do foreigners feel bad abt this? your stay in India is voluntary and according to your logic, its no problem.Talking of rats, the Indian rat has only irked some people, unlike some rats I know who destroyed civilizations and burned thousands. The same attitude of judging is still strong and the holier than thou attitude still active.Nobody invites you here, when you come, you must follow the law of the land. Is that so difficult?

Most importantly, the law does not curtail any religious freedom, it protects the religious freedom of the vulnerable.

Anonymous said...

whoever this blogger is, he doesn't know that you cannot "convert" to hinduism- hence there cannot be any law that makes it illegal!

and if yoga is a "hindu religious practice", then apparently quite a few americans are enthusiastic hindus themselves!

however, unlike the vatican (as it does to its churches in india), the hindu leadership (if there's one) does not have to funnel money to the yoga schools in the west to propagate its teachings. it gets done on its own merit.

private christian schools in india force their students to recite hymns and take part in other christian rituals even though the majority of the students are not christian. however, the national anthem is not compulsory in those schools. so much for religious freedom!

Steve Roney said...

Hi, Trip!

Delighted to see I have readers in India. Welcome to my blog, and thanks for your comment.

You confirm my claim; that “forced” conversion is merely a euphemism. The issue is, at worst, conversion for money. But if this really happens, why would you deny people you admit are very poor this easy way to make money from naïve Christians? All they have to do is pretend to convert. Who is the victim here? If not the rich Christian?

As to Christian missions distributing malicious books about Hinduism, this is reprehensible, but protected under freedom of speech. Even if you wanted to prohibit it, banning conversion is obviously not the way to do it. You ban the book. In other words, it is just an excuse.

Living in India is not, as you claim, voluntary, as living in the Vatican is. People are born in India, and then find it quite difficult to emigrate. Nobody is born in the Vatican, and any Vatican citizen must have consciously chosen that status. As you yourself say, most Indians are very poor. They cannot possibly just move to another country. Therefore, discriminating against them or withdrawing their human rights cannot be justified on the claim that they can “just leave.”

You also seem to be ignorant of Indian history. You seem to think that Christianity in India is some foreign import. It is not. There have been Christians in India longer than there have been Christians in England or the USA. Make no mistake that it is Indians who are being persecuted here, not just foreigners—not that the latter would be all right.

You speak of some unspecified “rat” who has “destroyed civilizations and burned thousands.” Could you please elaborate? To whom and what do you refer with this innuendo? At worst, your argument here is only that two wrongs make a right; but it also sounds like some sort of “blood guilt” claim against Christians, rather like the ones historically used to persecute Jews.

Steve Roney said...

Welcome, anonymous!

Glad to see I have a wide readership in India. Tell all your friends.

I am aware that some extremists in India claim that you cannot “convert” to Hinduism, as they consider Hinduism largely an ethnic designation—i.e., to them, no non-Indian can be a “Hindu.”

If you believe this, however, your problem is solved, and there is no justification for the anti-conversion laws. Because by that definition, Christianity in India is merely a form of Hinduism—and it is equally impossible to convert from Hinduism.

Quite a few Americans are indeed enthusiastic Hindus themselves, as I pointed out: Hare Krishnas, TMers, immigrants from India, and so forth. It is true that they support themselves on American, and not Indian money. My guess is that this has something to do with India being very poor, and America being very rich.

As to Christian schools requiring students to recite hymns and take part in Christian rituals, that is merely their right. After all, they do not conceal the fact that they are Christian, do they? Nor do they require Hindu students to attend, do they? Indeed, they’re damned if they do, and damned if they don’t. If they restricted attendance to Christians alone, you’d complain that they were “forcing” Hindus to convert in order to attend schools. If they allow Hindus to attend without restriction, you object that they are “forcing” them to sing hymns. But if you demand they cut out all the religion, you are preventing Christian children to study and practice their own religion in India.

You can’t have it both ways.

Anonymous said...

So extreme povery is some kind of joke? that people can make easy money by fooling rich people who want to change their faith? do you have any idea how humiliating this comment is? obviously not. anything to justify whatever you do. you are superior of course.

Secondly, my comment abt voluntary stay in India is for foreigners who come here but won't follow the law. some divine right.

Spanish inquisition? Witch hunts? Persecution in Goa... ring any bells?

i don't know abt ur beliefs, but in India its considered highly reprehensible to take advantage of a needy man's needs... people go to christian schools because they have the money to give education and for education they go... and you don't fool me by saying its by accident that christian schools have ten times more capacity than needed by their population...the schools can follow whatever required religious practices, but forcing others to follow your practices can not be a requirement under the your faith. then why force students? give them the all too important "freedom of religion"?

Lastly, freedom of speech in India is not absolute. you seemed to have missed ( but of course) the violent vandalism against the movie 'da vinci code' in india last few days...

your whole reply is tongue in cheek. what i've experienced on most such blogs. An introspective, open, humble mind is definitely not an outcome of THE teaching.

Anonymous said...

you cannot "convert" to hinduism because there is no such concept in hinduism. you can be hindu just by worshipping hindu gods, or probably even less.

therfore, this has nothing to do with hinduism being considered a "ethnic designation" and the other junk that you wrote (which by the way defies reasonable logic, even going with your assumptions: non-indians can not be hindus means christianity a form of hinduism? what have you been smoking?)

i suppose you missed the satire about yoga on purpose, but good try! the americans i was referring to were those who go to wal-mart to buy yoga mats and then head to the neighborhood gym for their yoga class.

for your other readers- yoga may have hindu origins but it is a form of excercise, a good one i may add.

the indian government does not have to subsidize the teaching of yoga like the vatican has to for the bible.

by the way, the indians who are in america or elsewhere are also creating wealth by virtue of their labour, hence it is wrong to characterize them to be subsisting on "american" money. your characterization would be correct if they were simply sitting at home and cashing dole checks, but i think you know that it is not the case.

i agree that hindu students do not have to necessarily enroll in christian schools, but that does not take anything away from the fact that there is no religious freedom in those schools.

why can't it be that the christian students are free to practise their rituals, while others can at least take a break, if not sing the national anthem?

and i'm not even asking for them to be allowed to perform their respective rituals, even though the school is sitting on land that is governed by secular laws.

why do catholics feel persecuted if there are laws that prevent them from coercing other people from joining their religion? i smell a big vatican rat.

Steve Roney said...

Hi again, Trip!

Okay, I can see clearly enough that humour is not your sort of thing. But I cannot see a need to apologize for having a sense you lack. I note the universal rule: those who hate much do not laugh; those who laugh much do not hate.

But if you are truly serious about the plight of the poor, why are you so ready to sacrifice them to your gods—prohibiting charity merely because it is Christian?

I note it seems I was right about the blood libel. Obviously, anyone guilty of anything in the Spanish Inquisition or the witch hunts of the European Renaissance is dead. They are not the people you are persecuting today.
This is not to say that either the Inquisition or the witch hunts were anything like the popular portrayal of them. That is mostly an anti-Christian and anti-Catholic slander.

Indeed, it is the sort of thing you just recently demanded be punished by law, which you said was “not a right in India.”

Can we expect you, then, to turn yourself in to the proper authorities?

Steve Roney said...

Hi again, Trip!

I am glad to hear you say you are not among those who consider Hinduism largely an ethnic designation. But why then do you assume, when I speak of Hindu converts in America, that I am referring to Indian immigrants?

And how does this fit with your previous claim that one cannot convert to Hinduism? Now you say it is extremely easy. This confirms the point to which you originally objected: Hare Krishnas and TM practitioners are indeed Hindu converts.

So, arguably, are those who practice yoga. “Yoga” means “yoking,” being bound back to some unity. This is almost exactly the etymological meaning of the English word “religion.” There are various “yogas,” including good works, meditation, and devotional prayer; the physical practices—body yoga--are just one, but they are religious in origin. They are as religious as the dances of the Sufi dervishes in Islam, or perhaps, the Christian tradition of kneeling.

Note too that it is not really necessary, in order to be Hindu, to worship the traditional Hindu gods. Shankara and the tradition of Advaita Vedanta, from which TM and much of yoga springs, did not and do not, but instead speak of an ultimate undifferentiated “oneness,” Brahman-Atman.

You claim the Indian government does not have to subsidize Hinduism, while the Vatican must subsidize Christianity. This is just about the opposite of the truth. The Vatican essentially has no funds but those it collects from voluntary donations of believers; it is not subsidized. The Indian government can collect taxes by compulsion, and then spend it to promote (subsidize) Hinduism; with, for example, discriminatory laws. Whether it does, is more or less the issue here in dispute.

You say that, because Christian schools are built on land “governed by secular laws,” they should not be permitted to impose their religious practices. Unfortunately, the same argument could also be used to prohibit all Christian churches, or indeed worship in private homes. They too are sitting on “secular” land.

Freedom of religion is a right the people hold and which the government cannot infringe. It is not a right the government holds and which the people cannot infringe. Accordingly, freedom of religion means anyone is free to set any rules they want in their own religious institutions, be they schools, hospitals, or churches, and the government may not interfere. (Albeit many governments, illegitimately, do).

That is the opposite of what is happening in India.

Anonymous said...

Yes humor is not always so handy. The missions in India had not a modicum of it when it came to da vinci code movie. so that sort of thing happens in matters Indian. don't take it personally.

I essentially agree with just abt everything you say abt religiuos freedom. I never even wanted to debate it. What i'm debating is the technicality of there being any persecution. first of all, no schools are being banned from doing ANY activities. No law says there can be no conversions. No law says you can't come to India or do charitable work. no law says you can't mention historical facts or preach to people. the so called 'anti conversion' laws are in place in some states for the last 38 years. 38 sir, and the latest ultra sensitive US report on religious freedom states categorically that there is no misuse of these laws. Then where is the persecution? the leader of india's ruling alliance and the most powerful politician is a roman catholic, the PM a sikh, the president muslim, the army chief a sikh, what persecution are you talking abt??? kindly reply to these and help me get back my sense of humor.

when there is no persecution, and still a head of a state gives a sermon to another sovereign state, it's bound to recieve a retort. if you have any knowledge of protocol, this sort of thing DOES NOT happen in international relations.

You ommitted the persecutions in Goa and you say the perpetrators are dead. Most nazis are dead or become pious now but we still call nazism bad don't we? Similarly, the casteism in India was banned sixty years ago and those who wrote the vedas are dead too, but missions still use this argument against Hinduism (Fact. check out the mission books). As far as blood libel goes, we in India don't have experience with such things. Even after conceding the authority on the subject to you, i'll tell you some facts - Jews have been living in India since the time before the destruction of the second temple. Not a single case of persecution ever reported. Zorashtrians are living in India for over a thousand years, not a single case of persecution. Same applies to jains and buddhists. Some missions in India work in most remote, poorest and lawless places where the the govt itself loses 100s of securitymen a month (Fact). So the govt can not give complete protection to missions in such parts. Even then there have been no cases of state persecution (there may have been criminal cases ( I don't know of any) but i hope you appreciate the difference). Basically this persecution war cry is hogwash. if you guys use spreadsheets, it will be interesting to compare the decible levels of this cry in a year and the increment in the money that comes into the country.

Your comparison of schools with homes is weird. homes are not public institutions teaching state curricula and subject to states responsibility of what happens in them to the students. In any case, no school activity or church activity is banned by any law as you ignorantly claim and my having an opposite viewpoint is not persecution. I'm not impying malice, but i'm saying your views are based on misinformation. So prove what i said is factually incorrect or stop abusing my motherland.

Many missions do lot of public service in India and they are given credit too. Mother teresa as an example. India had a three day state mourning after the pope's death recently even when its a secular state ( there has never been state mourning when Hindu shankaracharyas die). India is a tolerant and spiritually generous country and I have no idea what is being achieved by making Indians reconsider their stand.

Anonymous said...

"Freedom of religion is a right the people hold and which the government cannot infringe. It is not a right the government holds and which the people cannot infringe. Accordingly, freedom of religion means anyone is free to set any rules they want in their own religious institutions, be they schools, hospitals, or churches, and the government may not interfere. (Albeit many governments, illegitimately, do).
"

So you are saying once a hindu student joins a mission run school, his religious freedom becomes subordinate to the religious freedom of the school? Extending that logic, once one accepts aid from a mission, his religious freedom becomes subordinate to the missions! If you say a state can not make laws to force a mission to follow a particular path(which the state has not anyways) , then how can that mission make regulations to force students to follow their religious path? That means religious freedom really means religious freedom of you alone. This is the real face of you and your cause.

Anonymous said...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goa_Inquisition

If the perpetrators are dead, so are the victims. So lets just forget everything. Hey but the institution that sanctioned the inhuman acts, still exists and preaches others to grant religious freedom (not in its own state though)

You must call this slander, you really have no other alternative as the institution in question here has not even acknowledged, let alone apologized for these inhuman acts...just the way innocuous golden hearted humanitarians do.